What is real in Andriods? Who decides? How does this square with our own perceptions of reality in our own world? (Bonus points for referencing my man, Plato)
This is a difficult question, Alexis. The description of Plato's cave is alien to the 21st century reader who might better understand the allegory if framed in terms of modern technology.
The cave is a weird and bizarre construct that comes about by necessity. Plato couldn't illustrate this idea with television or radio or wide-scale instant information dissemination. So the cave is stilted to the modern reader.
I think, however, that you'll find the answer to this question here. The Penguin edition of Republic (translated by Desmond Lee) has a good explanatory footnote (or perhaps it occurs in the introduction). If you've not assigned Book VII, you might assign excerpts as well as Lee's thoughts on the matter. They're good and salient.
Plato mentioned that there is a fine line between the representer and the user. Most people defined reality as something you can use your five senses to detect, and I agree in the sense that what you feel is real is what’s real. The androids in Dick’s novel are symbolized to show how the line between real and fake is becoming more blurry by the second. Androids are so similar to humans that the only thing used to detect them as androids are the empathy test, and a bone marrow test. Technology is a big theme in this world, and it is used to fill a void that these humans can not fill themselves. Both androids and electric animals were invented so that the citizens can try and get a grasp on reality. Although the electric animals and the androids are not “real”, the humans can see, touch, feel, smell, and hear them. Their whole world is just an allusion as to what their definition of reality is.
I agree with Fantasia that we believe that inorder for something to be real to us, we must be able to see it, smell it, hear it, taste it and touch it. But if this is true why do we believe in things such as love and air. You might be able to feel it, but how can you exactly see it, taste it or smell it. Not everything in our world can be defined as real just b our senses. In Dicks novel, the androids can be defined as real because of our senses. But we know they are not becaue they are man made. They do not function exactly as humans do, but they are getting closer and closer to simulating humans actions, which might include emotions. So I guess real can be defined in many ways, its up to debate depending on the perspective of someone else.
Nothing in Androids is real as they are merely representations of something that is real. Plato theorized that representations are twice removed from reality and Androids being nothing but representations are twice removed. The problem with this is the fact the Androids can think. In Plato's analagy, representers were the people who painted the canvas not the canvas itself. However, if the canvas could in deed speak, would it be less real than what it was representing? What is reality anyway? How do we know that what one person sees is reality when compared to somebody else? If I look at something and see the color red, how do I know what I am seeing is the same as what everybody else is seeing? There is no way of knowing this. If that is true then everybody could have the same favorite color and just call it different things. Mind blowing isn't it? So back to Androids. They are as real or as fake as you want them to be. They would likely argue that they are real as humans would argue that they were fake. But once again it is impossible to tell the difference between one person's reality and your own.
Well as my classmates have already mentioned Plato emphasizes the notion of "reality" and attempts to catergorizer them into representer, user and manufacturer. In relevancy to the Androids they appear so "real" that it has become almost impossible to set them apart from humans,only empathy test, and bone marrow test's can distinguish them. For instance it was difficult to distinguish the sick cat from being real or a manmade cat, due to the fact that reality has been "blurred" as fantasia mentioned above. I think everything is real in the Androids except their empathy and "state of reality". I believe that in our society only YOU should determine what is real to you because, if you believe it than it "real" the brain is easily tricked, and for all we know , nothing can be real, nothing...
Hello Honors Class! While I only read Brave New World, of the selections mentioned in the past couple of discussions (and that was when I was your age...), but I will comment a bit on Platonic forms.
Plato's forms (http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbanach/platform.htm) are not found in the earthly world, but rather in an ideal state that cannot be reached tangibly by humanity. The forms are the 'perfect' version of what we experience on Earth. Take an apple, for example. When I saw "apple", all of you have a similar image in mind - roundish, with a stem, shiny, red (or maybe green, I could be more specific about kind of apple). This image that you conjure up is the form (or close to it), though many of the apples you see day to day are bruised, irregular, etc.
Plato argues that the forms themselves are real (the perfect apple), not their Earthly representations(the bruised apple you actually buy and eat). The material representation (the bruised apple, you, me, anything on Earth) is just a imperfect version of the perfect form.
Again, I am no philosophy student, but what interests me in this theory is its possible application to art. Looking at Classical and Renaissance art, you can see how the sculptors and painters (think Michelangelo's David, or basically anything by Michelangelo)really strove for these 'perfect forms' of the human body. Personally, I like to recall the forms when I see something naturally beautiful, like a sunset or full moon, and think that they come close to the platonic ideal form of that event/material.
So, based on what Ms. Heskel said, are the androids in Dick's novel actuallly closer to this Platonic ideal than the humans? Are they - somehow - a "realer" version of humans because they approach perfection or is this perception skewed because they are created? Are these andriods the result of the user the manufacture or the representer?
i believe that they are not "realer" versions of humans because they approach "perfection", I believe that they are what society perceives to be a "perfect" person. Not necessarily what everyone perceives to be a "perfect" person. The androids are the result of the representer because society wants you to see their representation of the kind of person that they perceive to be "perfect."
*Marlina* In this book it is difficult to determine what is real and what is not. In the excerpt we read in class entitled Republic by Plato we come across the analogy of a painter and a poet. These two creators paint or depict with words what they want you to visualize. In reality what their saying or drawing does not have to be real but it is real to you, and that is the illusion Plato depicted. This is relevant to the book because you can not tell whether or not an android is real or not without a test. This infers that in our society we can not tell what reality is and what isn’t. Or in other words what is real and what is fake. Androids are so well made that they can imitate actual life. I agree with my fellow Bloggers most of their ideas corresponded with mines.
I would to comment fendi's comment, I don't think it trying to achieve a "perfect" person, but the idea of that man can create what they feel and believe is what makes them superior, to anyone else. tHE soul reason for the androids was to be slaves and work for the humans. They wanted something that they can turn off with a switch and program to do the things they want to do for them without a problem. The andriods in my mind are the kinds of things human dream to create for the reason of not doing things themselves.
As to what cindel commented, she said that they wanted somethjnig they can easily turn off with a switch, but the same could be said for the humans. The humans are able to "dial" their emotions. Isnt being able to change your emotion into something completely different from what your feeling also like being a slave to your emotions. Rick forced Iran into dailing for ecstatic sexual bliss even though that was not how she felt, cant this also be considered a form of slavery?? *fantasia*
I think reality to androids are the same as what we believe to be real. Androids are representations of humans and when given the brain and technology to think like human, they become one. What they believe to be real are decided by them and the technology their given.
androids aren't real. everyone that is naturally concieved as a human. i mean born from birth like out of the uterus or a sea-section. this doesn't change our perspective of reality.
haha first comment.
ReplyDeletei already did one this week! =P
lol o.o second comment i did one 2 =D
ReplyDeleteThis is a difficult question, Alexis. The description of Plato's cave is alien to the 21st century reader who might better understand the allegory if framed in terms of modern technology.
ReplyDeleteThe cave is a weird and bizarre construct that comes about by necessity. Plato couldn't illustrate this idea with television or radio or wide-scale instant information dissemination. So the cave is stilted to the modern reader.
I think, however, that you'll find the answer to this question here. The Penguin edition of Republic (translated by Desmond Lee) has a good explanatory footnote (or perhaps it occurs in the introduction). If you've not assigned Book VII, you might assign excerpts as well as Lee's thoughts on the matter. They're good and salient.
Plato mentioned that there is a fine line between the representer and the user. Most people defined reality as something you can use your five senses to detect, and I agree in the sense that what you feel is real is what’s real.
ReplyDeleteThe androids in Dick’s novel are symbolized to show how the line between real and fake is becoming more blurry by the second. Androids are so similar to humans that the only thing used to detect them as androids are the empathy test, and a bone marrow test.
Technology is a big theme in this world, and it is used to fill a void that these humans can not fill themselves. Both androids and electric animals were invented so that the citizens can try and get a grasp on reality. Although the electric animals and the androids are not “real”, the humans can see, touch, feel, smell, and hear them. Their whole world is just an allusion as to what their definition of reality is.
THIS IS FANTASIA=)
ReplyDeleteI agree with Fantasia that we believe that inorder for something to be real to us, we must be able to see it, smell it, hear it, taste it and touch it. But if this is true why do we believe in things such as love and air. You might be able to feel it, but how can you exactly see it, taste it or smell it. Not everything in our world can be defined as real just b our senses.
ReplyDeleteIn Dicks novel, the androids can be defined as real because of our senses. But we know they are not becaue they are man made. They do not function exactly as humans do, but they are getting closer and closer to
simulating humans actions, which might include emotions.
So I guess real can be defined in many ways, its up to debate depending on the perspective of someone else.
ITS ME KRYSTAL<3
ReplyDeleteNothing in Androids is real as they are merely representations of something that is real. Plato theorized that representations are twice removed from reality and Androids being nothing but representations are twice removed. The problem with this is the fact the Androids can think. In Plato's analagy, representers were the people who painted the canvas not the canvas itself. However, if the canvas could in deed speak, would it be less real than what it was representing? What is reality anyway? How do we know that what one person sees is reality when compared to somebody else? If I look at something and see the color red, how do I know what I am seeing is the same as what everybody else is seeing? There is no way of knowing this. If that is true then everybody could have the same favorite color and just call it different things. Mind blowing isn't it? So back to Androids. They are as real or as fake as you want them to be. They would likely argue that they are real as humans would argue that they were fake. But once again it is impossible to tell the difference between one person's reality and your own.
ReplyDeleteWell as my classmates have already mentioned Plato emphasizes the notion of "reality" and attempts to catergorizer them into representer, user and manufacturer. In relevancy to the Androids they appear so "real" that it has become almost impossible to set them apart from humans,only empathy test, and bone marrow test's can distinguish them. For instance it was difficult to distinguish the sick cat from being real or a manmade cat, due to the fact that reality has been "blurred" as fantasia mentioned above. I think everything is real in the Androids except their empathy and "state of reality". I believe that in our society only YOU should determine what is real to you because, if you believe it than it "real" the brain is easily tricked, and for all we know , nothing can be real, nothing...
ReplyDeleteHello Honors Class! While I only read Brave New World, of the selections mentioned in the past couple of discussions (and that was when I was your age...), but I will comment a bit on Platonic forms.
ReplyDeletePlato's forms (http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbanach/platform.htm) are not found in the earthly world, but rather in an ideal state that cannot be reached tangibly by humanity. The forms are the 'perfect' version of what we experience on Earth. Take an apple, for example. When I saw "apple", all of you have a similar image in mind - roundish, with a stem, shiny, red (or maybe green, I could be more specific about kind of apple). This image that you conjure up is the form (or close to it), though many of the apples you see day to day are bruised, irregular, etc.
Plato argues that the forms themselves are real (the perfect apple), not their Earthly representations(the bruised apple you actually buy and eat). The material representation (the bruised apple, you, me, anything on Earth) is just a imperfect version of the perfect form.
Again, I am no philosophy student, but what interests me in this theory is its possible application to art. Looking at Classical and Renaissance art, you can see how the sculptors and painters (think Michelangelo's David, or basically anything by Michelangelo)really strove for these 'perfect forms' of the human body. Personally, I like to recall the forms when I see something naturally beautiful, like a sunset or full moon, and think that they come close to the platonic ideal form of that event/material.
That's all for now!
-Ms. Heskel
So, based on what Ms. Heskel said, are the androids in Dick's novel actuallly closer to this Platonic ideal than the humans? Are they - somehow - a "realer" version of humans because they approach perfection or is this perception skewed because they are created? Are these andriods the result of the user the manufacture or the representer?
ReplyDeletei believe that they are not "realer" versions of humans because they approach "perfection", I believe that they are what society perceives to be a "perfect" person. Not necessarily what everyone perceives to be a "perfect" person. The androids are the result of the representer because society wants you to see their representation of the kind of person that they perceive to be "perfect."
ReplyDelete*Marlina*
ReplyDeleteIn this book it is difficult to determine what is real and what is not. In the excerpt we read in class entitled Republic by Plato we come across the analogy of a painter and a poet. These two creators paint or depict with words what they want you to visualize. In reality what their saying or drawing does not have to be real but it is real to you, and that is the illusion Plato depicted. This is relevant to the book because you can not tell whether or not an android is real or not without a test. This infers that in our society we can not tell what reality is and what isn’t. Or in other words what is real and what is fake. Androids are so well made that they can imitate actual life. I agree with my fellow Bloggers most of their ideas corresponded with mines.
I would to comment fendi's comment, I don't think it trying to achieve a "perfect" person, but the idea of that man can create what they feel and believe is what makes them superior, to anyone else. tHE soul reason for the androids was to be slaves and work for the humans. They wanted something that they can turn off with a switch and program to do the things they want to do for them without a problem. The andriods in my mind are the kinds of things human dream to create for the reason of not doing things themselves.
ReplyDeleteCindel
As to what cindel commented, she said that they wanted somethjnig they can easily turn off with a switch, but the same could be said for the humans. The humans are able to "dial" their emotions. Isnt being able to change your emotion into something completely different from what your feeling also like being a slave to your emotions. Rick forced Iran into dailing for ecstatic sexual bliss even though that was not how she felt, cant this also be considered a form of slavery??
ReplyDelete*fantasia*
I think reality to androids are the same as what we believe to be real. Androids are representations of humans and when given the brain and technology to think like human, they become one. What they believe to be real are decided by them and the technology their given.
ReplyDeleteandroids aren't real. everyone that is naturally concieved as a human. i mean born from birth like out of the uterus or a sea-section. this doesn't change our perspective of reality.
ReplyDelete